We're Having a Heat Wave... - Page 2

shorty943 · 06-27-2007, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg

Oh, there you are! You were just hiding around the edge of the globe.

The map in the picture seems to be centered on the Prime Meridian. I had to stare at it for a while to figure that out, but it makes sense to have some reference point while everything is moving around, and the Prime Meridian makes as much sense as anything.

Harumph. And why not the International Dateline I ask. That way, we could see each other, and them quarrelsome lot up north can't bother us.

Miros1 · 06-27-2007, 02:26 PM

Seems to me most maps of that type start by jamming South America and Africa together along the Atlantic Trench, which is fairly close to the Prime Meridian. If you used the International Date Line, there'd be almost nothing to see for most of the plate movement...

Greg · 06-27-2007, 03:18 PM

Yeah, the International Date Line is kinda crooked, and if you're looking down on it from an equatorial plane, you'll see a whole lot of water.

shorty943 · 06-28-2007, 12:02 AM

Yeah, it got bent, because somebody, didn't like living in yesterday.
Something about Guam, and I think the Fiji Islands. They are pretty close to the same meridian, but Guam is in US time (yesterday), and Fiji is on our time (today). Bah Humbug.
Always the same. It seems, some small section of population is disgruntled, and everybody else, has to change to suit the few.
What do you think of this "daylight saving" rubbish?
Ooh, I just gave away my feelings.
The cows still need milking morning and night.
The crops still need working, no matter what the pseudo time.
It seems the only people, who benefit from daylight saving, at least here in Australia, are the office girls, who get an hour more at the beach after work.
Has it worked out similar there, with your experiment in towing the US 1,000 Nautical Miles East?

Miros1 · 06-28-2007, 02:03 AM

Siberia and the Aleutian Islands too...

Greg · 06-28-2007, 03:03 AM

I suspect that any benefits of daylight-saving time, if there ever were any, were obviated by the invention of the electric light bulb. It would be very difficult for me to come up with a cogent argument for daylight-saving time. Its benefits are weak and anecdotal, while its costs are enormous and universal.

Basically, I'd say it's just about the dumbest thing people have come up in the past two centuries, overshadowed only by Prohibition, driving the Shah out of Iran, and giving away the Panama Canal.

Miros1 · 06-28-2007, 02:13 PM

Actually, it kind of made sense during WWII, when people were under blackout restrictions after dark.

Even dumber than DST: The year they tried "year round" DST and I had to walk to school in the dark. Two blocks, uphill both ways, yadda yadda yadda...

Greg · 06-28-2007, 06:07 PM

Aw, if people want to get up early, they can just schedule their day to get up early. I don't see an advantage to forcing it on the whole country.

Yup, I remember double-daylight time. That was supposed to save energy. Didn't last long. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

homerette · 06-28-2007, 09:23 PM

I seem to recall hearing about a study done a couple of years ago that basically stated daylight savings was obsolete and not that successful in the first place. So what do "they" do? Bring it in a couple of weeks early and permanently screw up my computer's internal clock, not to mention mine. I'm not a large fan of daylight savings myself, couldja tell?

Greg · 06-29-2007, 02:05 AM

Since it won't go away, there must be someone out there somewhere who thinks that daylight-saving time is a good idea; however, I have yet to meet that person.

shorty943 · 06-29-2007, 10:40 AM

Apparently Europe has come to it's collective senses.
But there are some clowns here, who think they can tow Australia, 1,000 miles East for ever.
Yep, some idiot, reckons we should have daylight saving 365 per.

We even run different schedules, in different states. A half hour flight from Sydney to Brisbane has you arriving half an hour before you left for 2 weeks. 3 months later, the same flight takes 1 1\2 hours.

Yes sirree, when our public servants screw up, they screw up, right royal, as the saying goes.

That's it, that's the problem. Public servant's, and there idiot interpretation of the world.
That's what is causing Global Warming. Bureaucratic Bungling. They've got the bloody thermometer, upside down.

shorty943 · 07-25-2007, 12:06 AM

I've been thinking and watching this.

England is under water again, with the worst flooding in 60 or 70 years. One area in the news last night, had over 1 months rain, dumped in 1 hour.
Hungary, 500 people dead from heat wave conditions.
USA, massive wild fires and was it Nevada got browned out with big dust storms.

Some years ago now, I attended a lecture by Dr. David Suzuki. He mentioned the first warnings from over twenty years ago, saying that there were only a few years left before the changes where irreversable.
My feelings are, the "global warming" stage is already almost cooked, and we are actually now seeing the very first of the climatic changes. Of course these are not scientifically controlled findings, but merely the feeling in the bones of a farm boy\sailor.

Miros1 · 07-25-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shorty943

<snip>merely the feeling in the bones of a farm boy\sailor.

My knees and index fingers agree with you.

Greg · 07-25-2007, 12:20 AM

What has really changed it the availability of news around the world and the media's over-dramatization of everything that report on.

Two these, I'm sure of: Nevada has always had big dust storms (I lived there for almost 5 years), and at any time there are thousands of wild fires in the forests of the USA (my roommate in Seattle was a fire jumper). Throughout history, charlatans have made huge profits by over-dramatizing isolated anecdotal incidents. I don't see anything different going on today.

mikedelaney16 · 07-25-2007, 12:25 AM

Just going back to DST briefly. During WWII, Britain and Ireland both had separate Urban and Rural DST. Farmers were an hour ahead of the city. Add to that the fact that the railways had their own version of time aka Station Time....

Greg · 07-25-2007, 12:29 AM

Was it like that prior to WWII, or just during the war?

mikedelaney16 · 07-25-2007, 01:10 AM

Just during the war afaik. London and Dublin only synchronized sometime around WWI though, prior to that they differed by about 23 minutes. The station time thing was a problem until sometime after the war.

Oh, and we (The British Isles) tried staying on DST through winter in the early 70s so we could sync with those pesky Europeans. But like Rose said, still dark at 8:30 - 9:00 am. Yuck! A different plan is needed, one that would get Spain, France, the Benelux and Germany in their proper timezone with us with only a 30 minute adjustment. But we all know they (especially the French) wont go for that. Central European Time is way too convenient for them, almost the whole old 15 EU states use it. Not sure about the 10 new ones, they may be on UT+2 in winter.

Looking at the graph at the start of this thread makes me wonder about the motives for the scare mongering that's going on. Yes, there is a fairly clear indication of an uprise, but it may be far more closely related to natural cycles than governments and oil companies pay the media to tell us. Sorry, I just don't buy global warming as it's marketed, it doesn't add up.

Is there any way to convert that graph to a more linear version so we can see how close it comes to a decaying sine wave. I suspect it's something rather like a drum beat, but with both frequency and amplitude decaying. Possibly with multiple waveforms.

Miros1 · 07-25-2007, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Was it like that prior to WWII, or just during the war?

That was so the Germans would drop bombs and they wouldn't land for an hour. Gave people time to evacuate.

Greg · 07-25-2007, 02:04 AM

I don't have the original source data for that graph but of course it would be possible to pick selected points and plot it on different scales. If it did turn out to be sinusoidal, that would imply that the temperature cycles are related to the orbit of something about something.

Global Warming Propaganda Amusement: Last week I ran across an oft-copied quote that said that humans produce more than 200 times as much CO2 as volcanoes. I kept digging, and found that the number they were using for the CO2 from volcanoes was much less than what they were quoting on a show on the Discovery Channel as the annual output of ONE volcano.

It was almost impossible to find out even that one datum. There seems to be a strategy to create as many web sites as possible, all political, and all quoting each other. So any web search for "volcano carbon dioxide" is a thousand times more likely to hit one of the political sites than any real scientific data.

Some of the sites are so incredibly similar that I'm wondering if there isn't a program out there spawning them, even to the point of setting up bulletin boards and posting messages.

Aaaarrggggh! Anybody want

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miros1

That was so the Germans would drop bombs and they wouldn't land for an hour. Gave people time to evacuate.

mikedelaney16 · 07-25-2007, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg

If it did turn out to be sinusoidal, that would imply that the temperature cycles are related to the orbit of something about something.

By the time you allow for:
Solar rotation.
Solar wobble.
Solar temperature variations.
Variations in Earth's orbit.
Earth's wobble.
Natural CO2 absorption and production variations by vegetation and oceans.
The effects of volcanos.
Man's activity over a couple of thousand years.

That should produce a fairly complex pattern.

Heck, aren't these the same people who just 30 years ago were predicting we'd be in an ice age 10 years ago?

Now, throw in the strange coincidences that seem to occur every time the price of oil drops below $65/barrel. Things like ill advised wars, unexpected shutdowns of pipelines, diplomatic difficulties with Russia...

Methinks someone is playing games with us.

06-27-2007, 03:18 PM	#23
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Yeah, the International Date Line is kinda crooked, and if you're looking down on it from an equatorial plane, you'll see a whole lot of water. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

06-28-2007, 03:03 AM	#26
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	I suspect that any benefits of daylight-saving time, if there ever were any, were obviated by the invention of the electric light bulb. It would be very difficult for me to come up with a cogent argument for daylight-saving time. Its benefits are weak and anecdotal, while its costs are enormous and universal. Basically, I'd say it's just about the dumbest thing people have come up in the past two centuries, overshadowed only by Prohibition, driving the Shah out of Iran, and giving away the Panama Canal. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

06-28-2007, 06:07 PM	#28
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Aw, if people want to get up early, they can just schedule their day to get up early. I don't see an advantage to forcing it on the whole country. Yup, I remember double-daylight time. That was supposed to save energy. Didn't last long. Dumb, dumb, dumb. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

06-28-2007, 09:23 PM	#29
homerette Day late & a dollar short Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: central VA Posts: 206	I seem to recall hearing about a study done a couple of years ago that basically stated daylight savings was obsolete and not that successful in the first place. So what do "they" do? Bring it in a couple of weeks early and permanently screw up my computer's internal clock, not to mention mine. I'm not a large fan of daylight savings myself, couldja tell? __________________ May the roof above us never fall in, and may we friends gathered below never fall out.

06-29-2007, 02:05 AM	#30
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Since it won't go away, there must be someone out there somewhere who thinks that daylight-saving time is a good idea; however, I have yet to meet that person. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

06-27-2007, 02:26 PM	#22
Miros1 Goddess for Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY State Posts: 3,303	Seems to me most maps of that type start by jamming South America and Africa together along the Atlantic Trench, which is fairly close to the Prime Meridian. If you used the International Date Line, there'd be almost nothing to see for most of the plate movement...

06-28-2007, 12:02 AM	#24
shorty943 Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 805	Yeah, it got bent, because somebody, didn't like living in yesterday. Something about Guam, and I think the Fiji Islands. They are pretty close to the same meridian, but Guam is in US time (yesterday), and Fiji is on our time (today). Bah Humbug. Always the same. It seems, some small section of population is disgruntled, and everybody else, has to change to suit the few. What do you think of this "daylight saving" rubbish? Ooh, I just gave away my feelings. The cows still need milking morning and night. The crops still need working, no matter what the pseudo time. It seems the only people, who benefit from daylight saving, at least here in Australia, are the office girls, who get an hour more at the beach after work. Has it worked out similar there, with your experiment in towing the US 1,000 Nautical Miles East?

06-28-2007, 02:03 AM	#25
Miros1 Goddess for Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY State Posts: 3,303	Siberia and the Aleutian Islands too...

06-28-2007, 02:13 PM	#27
Miros1 Goddess for Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY State Posts: 3,303	Actually, it kind of made sense during WWII, when people were under blackout restrictions after dark. Even dumber than DST: The year they tried "year round" DST and I had to walk to school in the dark. Two blocks, uphill both ways, yadda yadda yadda...

06-29-2007, 10:40 AM	#31
shorty943 Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 805	Apparently Europe has come to it's collective senses. But there are some clowns here, who think they can tow Australia, 1,000 miles East for ever. Yep, some idiot, reckons we should have daylight saving 365 per. We even run different schedules, in different states. A half hour flight from Sydney to Brisbane has you arriving half an hour before you left for 2 weeks. 3 months later, the same flight takes 1 1\2 hours. Yes sirree, when our public servants screw up, they screw up, right royal, as the saying goes. That's it, that's the problem. Public servant's, and there idiot interpretation of the world. That's what is causing Global Warming. Bureaucratic Bungling. They've got the bloody thermometer, upside down.

07-25-2007, 12:06 AM	#32
shorty943 Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 805	I've been thinking and watching this. England is under water again, with the worst flooding in 60 or 70 years. One area in the news last night, had over 1 months rain, dumped in 1 hour. Hungary, 500 people dead from heat wave conditions. USA, massive wild fires and was it Nevada got browned out with big dust storms. Some years ago now, I attended a lecture by Dr. David Suzuki. He mentioned the first warnings from over twenty years ago, saying that there were only a few years left before the changes where irreversable. My feelings are, the "global warming" stage is already almost cooked, and we are actually now seeing the very first of the climatic changes. Of course these are not scientifically controlled findings, but merely the feeling in the bones of a farm boy\sailor.

07-25-2007, 12:20 AM	#34
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	What has really changed it the availability of news around the world and the media's over-dramatization of everything that report on. Two these, I'm sure of: Nevada has always had big dust storms (I lived there for almost 5 years), and at any time there are thousands of wild fires in the forests of the USA (my roommate in Seattle was a fire jumper). Throughout history, charlatans have made huge profits by over-dramatizing isolated anecdotal incidents. I don't see anything different going on today. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

07-25-2007, 12:25 AM	#35
mikedelaney16 Solar Max Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 201	Just going back to DST briefly. During WWII, Britain and Ireland both had separate Urban and Rural DST. Farmers were an hour ahead of the city. Add to that the fact that the railways had their own version of time aka Station Time....

07-25-2007, 12:29 AM	#36
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Was it like that prior to WWII, or just during the war? __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

07-25-2007, 01:10 AM	#37
mikedelaney16 Solar Max Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 201	Just during the war afaik. London and Dublin only synchronized sometime around WWI though, prior to that they differed by about 23 minutes. The station time thing was a problem until sometime after the war. Oh, and we (The British Isles) tried staying on DST through winter in the early 70s so we could sync with those pesky Europeans. But like Rose said, still dark at 8:30 - 9:00 am. Yuck! A different plan is needed, one that would get Spain, France, the Benelux and Germany in their proper timezone with us with only a 30 minute adjustment. But we all know they (especially the French) wont go for that. Central European Time is way too convenient for them, almost the whole old 15 EU states use it. Not sure about the 10 new ones, they may be on UT+2 in winter. Looking at the graph at the start of this thread makes me wonder about the motives for the scare mongering that's going on. Yes, there is a fairly clear indication of an uprise, but it may be far more closely related to natural cycles than governments and oil companies pay the media to tell us. Sorry, I just don't buy global warming as it's marketed, it doesn't add up. Is there any way to convert that graph to a more linear version so we can see how close it comes to a decaying sine wave. I suspect it's something rather like a drum beat, but with both frequency and amplitude decaying. Possibly with multiple waveforms. Last edited by mikedelaney16 : 07-25-2007 at 01:20 AM.