Master and Commander - Page 7

Greg · 01-07-2008, 02:05 AM

REAL beaches! Now that is tempting!

I fear that after reading six volumes of Master and Commander, the cartoon treatment of a "pirate" ship might be more distressing than rewarding. The ship shown in that picture looks rather like a cross between 15th century Spanish galleon and Donald Duck's car.

Greg · 01-07-2008, 02:55 AM

Speaking of Master and Commander, I was just reading The Fortunes of War and near the end of the book came across a most interesting development.

Synopsis: Captain Jack Aubrey and Doctor Stephen Maturin ended up as prisoners of war in Boston. After all sorts of amusing adventures, they escaped (Jack never having given his parole) in a borrowed fishing boat and are now aboard HMS Shannon, a frigate captained by Jack's old friend Philip Broke. So far so good. They're safe again aboard a British ship during the War of 1812.

HMS Shannon is part of the British blockade of Boston harbor. Their mission is to sail around in circles and keep three American men of war bottled up, along with all American shipping out of Boston. (Back then Boston was America's main port north of the Patomac.) They can't approach too close to the harbor because the American guns on shore would shoot them to bits if they tried.

Two of the American ships had already slipped out of Boston in the dog before Jack ever escaped from the Americans, leaving only the Chesapeake, captained by Captain Lawrence. Jack Aubrey knows Lawrence very well and has great respect for him.

It might become important that two more American fighting ships are being reoutfitted in Boston harbor, one of them being the Constitution, the ship that had taken Jack and Stephen captive and the same historical ship known as Old Ironsides that sails today from Boston harbor, still under commission in the US Navy. Presumably there's too much work to be done on these ships for them to be a factor in the current situation.

Then, in the scene I just read, Captain Broke wrote a letter a letter to Captain Lawrence.

His Britannic Majesty's Ship Shannon,
off Boston,
June 1813
Sir,

As the Chesapeake appears now ready for sea, I request you will do me the favour to meet the Shannon with her, ship to ship, to try the fortune of or respective flags. To an officer of your character it requries some apology for proceeding to further particulars. Be assured, Sir, that it is not from any doubt I can entertain your wishing to close with my proposals, but merely to provide an answer to any objection which might be made, and very reasonably, upon the chance of our receiving unfair support.

Broke goes on to tell Lawrence that he has sent the rest of the blockade away, exactly how many guns he has and of what type and where they are mounted, exactly how many crew he has aboard along with their ages and levels of experience, and the fact that he has only one day of water aboard and must surely have to withdraw to reprovision his ship if the Chesapeake does not meet him the following day.

Amazingly, Jack Aubrey thinks it's a great idea to send this letter. Surely it will bring Lawrence out.

That strikes me as one of the most ill-advised, hare-brained, idiotic things a British sea captain could have done in that situation. Now, it might well be that Captain Lawrence will answer this nutty challenge to come out and fight ship to ship--thus facing a court martial even if he wins the battle--but I suspect that it's much more likely that he will follow one of several alternative courses available to him:

Wait until the following day when the Shannon has to stand down for water and just slip on out of the harbor.
Head out when he has the weather gauge and chase the Shannon out to sea where she'll eventually have to strike her colors because she is out of water.
Come out of the harbor with the Constitution and maybe the other ship at his side, even if only partially outfitted and provisioned, and easily add the Shannon to the American navy; and then go on to defeat the British blockade in detail.

Greg · 01-07-2008, 12:20 PM

It turned out that there was an option 4 that I hadn't thought of. The captain of the Chesapeake never got the letter. He was already on his way out. He engaged the Shannon and lost both his ship and his life in the process, and that was the end of the book.

Miros1 · 01-07-2008, 02:03 PM

Actually, I'd have assumed he was lying about the one day of water and was trying to trick Captain Lawrence into coming out the next day assuming the Shannon would strike colors.

Greg · 01-07-2008, 04:52 PM

Yup. I would have been suspicious of the British captain's motives, too.

The US Navy history site has a web page about what really happened in the battle between the Shannon and the Chesapeake.

HMS Shannon vs. US Chesapeake, June 1, 1813
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph

Greg · 01-07-2008, 04:57 PM

Aha! It was during this battle that Captain James Lawrence issued the immortal words, "Don't give up the ship!"

Greg · 01-07-2008, 05:09 PM

Incidentally, Jack and Stephen were aboard HMS Java when the USS Constitution shot her up on December 29, 1812. That's how they ended up being prisoners of war in Boston in the first place.

O'Brian likes to keep his novels as historically accurate as he can while placing his fictional characters aboard the ship.

shorty943 · 01-11-2008, 03:56 AM

It makes a break from the institutionalised "official" history books.

The lessons are still there, but in a more personal way.

Wilbur Smith writes of South Africa in the same way.

Greg · 01-11-2008, 11:47 AM

I hadn't heard of Wilbur Smith. I take it he writes historical novels?

shorty943 · 01-11-2008, 11:46 PM

Mostly recent South Africa. The diamond wars, Tribal wars, the early 20th century Italian and German pushes into North Africa, between the two world wars, mentions Cecil Rhodes (Rhodesia) a few times.

Formulated of course. The hero is always a manly man with the obligatory limp, bad burn scars or what ever, the lead lady is a ravishing beauty, shame about the broken tooth received in the school Lacrosse match. Etc, etc.
And they all live happily ever after on the Rift Valley.
More for the ladies I think, I read a couple he wrote.
Apart from the names and a few other changes, as the saying goes. The story is pretty much the same. An action romance with some local flavour thrown in.

Greg · 01-12-2008, 08:03 PM

Hmm... that doesn't sound at all like O'Brian's work with Master and Commander. His characters live in the times and places they inhabit, right down to the least detail.

shorty943 · 01-13-2008, 01:35 AM

Smith is more of the romantic side I suppose.
I read the first one because Mother dear had enjoyed the story.
The second was really not that different, so I never read another Wilbur Smith novel.
But, the detail of the life and times, the tribal life stories, all are accurate.
The brutality towards the African people, the lust and murder for diamonds and gold.
Just a little softened for the ladies.

Captain J. E. MacDonald, there is a war writer.
A genuine Royal Australian Navy WW2 destroyer skipper.
Came up through the ranks to become a commissioned officer. Through the hawsepipe as we call it.
Try to find anything by him, about the pacific war, our way of doing it.
Then you might get an idea of why we still love JFK over here.
JFK was based here for a while during WW2 and I still swear today, he is the real McHale, of McHale's Navy.

Greg · 01-13-2008, 03:25 AM

Wow! I'm surprised that JFK's publicists are still effective after all these years!

shorty943 · 01-13-2008, 07:03 AM

It's a Navy thing, mate.

A skipper that tows a crewman for over a day by his belt to save him.
You can't forget a man like that.

Greg · 01-13-2008, 11:32 AM

I'm sure the crewman wouldn't forget it! I've never read PT109 so I suspect I'm out of the loop when it comes to JFK being a Navy hero, but there is some interesting documentation about it on the US Navy history site.

"Any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction, 'I served in the United States Navy,'" wrote President John F. Kennedy in August 1963.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-2.htm

shorty943 · 01-17-2008, 08:10 PM

From memory it was his engineer.
The movie starring William Holden is actually quite good. For Whollywierd.

I had a quick look at the USN report. Most properly dry.

It was his inauguration speech re-broadcast over here that made me think as a kid in school.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask instead, what you can do for your country".

Miros1 · 01-17-2008, 09:07 PM

You know, we actually discussed PT-109 before. Don't remember if it was here or on the Hullabaloo.

shorty943 · 01-17-2008, 09:39 PM

Here in passing I think.

Greg · 01-18-2008, 12:22 AM

Yeah, but I think we were talking about Pollenation Technician #109.

shorty943 · 01-18-2008, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg

Yeah, but I think we were talking about Pollenation Technician #109.

Knowing the way we tend to traject out of plane?

Hang about. Hullabaloo? Another site I've not found yet? Oh my.

And while we are on trajectories. Or not.
I reckon we can use the western slope, of the Great Dividing Range, as a sort of jump jet kicker. That will save on embankments and towers for the rail launcher.
We could start on a downhill run, at the Hammersley Range, in Western Australia, go like hell across the valley floor for a thousand or so miles, and then kick up over the eastern mountains, and we're on our way to Mars and beyond.
Yeah, she'll be right mate, that should work.

01-07-2008, 02:05 AM	#121
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	REAL beaches! Now *that* is tempting! I fear that after reading six volumes of Master and Commander, the cartoon treatment of a "pirate" ship might be more distressing than rewarding. The ship shown in that picture looks rather like a cross between 15th century Spanish galleon and Donald Duck's car. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

01-07-2008, 02:55 AM	#122
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Speaking of Master and Commander, I was just reading The Fortunes of War and near the end of the book came across a most interesting development. Synopsis: Captain Jack Aubrey and Doctor Stephen Maturin ended up as prisoners of war in Boston. After all sorts of amusing adventures, they escaped (Jack never having given his parole) in a borrowed fishing boat and are now aboard HMS Shannon, a frigate captained by Jack's old friend Philip Broke. So far so good. They're safe again aboard a British ship during the War of 1812. HMS Shannon is part of the British blockade of Boston harbor. Their mission is to sail around in circles and keep three American men of war bottled up, along with all American shipping out of Boston. (Back then Boston was America's main port north of the Patomac.) They can't approach too close to the harbor because the American guns on shore would shoot them to bits if they tried. Two of the American ships had already slipped out of Boston in the dog before Jack ever escaped from the Americans, leaving only the Chesapeake, captained by Captain Lawrence. Jack Aubrey knows Lawrence very well and has great respect for him. It might become important that two more American fighting ships are being reoutfitted in Boston harbor, one of them being the Constitution, the ship that had taken Jack and Stephen captive and the same historical ship known as Old Ironsides that sails today from Boston harbor, still under commission in the US Navy. Presumably there's too much work to be done on these ships for them to be a factor in the current situation. Then, in the scene I just read, Captain Broke wrote a letter a letter to Captain Lawrence. His Britannic Majesty's Ship Shannon, off Boston, June 1813 Sir, As the Chesapeake appears now ready for sea, I request you will do me the favour to meet the Shannon with her, ship to ship, to try the fortune of or respective flags. To an officer of your character it requries some apology for proceeding to further particulars. Be assured, Sir, that it is not from any doubt I can entertain your wishing to close with my proposals, but merely to provide an answer to any objection which might be made, and very reasonably, upon the chance of our receiving unfair support. Broke goes on to tell Lawrence that he has sent the rest of the blockade away, exactly how many guns he has and of what type and where they are mounted, exactly how many crew he has aboard along with their ages and levels of experience, and the fact that he has only one day of water aboard and must surely have to withdraw to reprovision his ship if the Chesapeake does not meet him the following day. Amazingly, Jack Aubrey thinks it's a great idea to send this letter. Surely it will bring Lawrence out. That strikes me as one of the most ill-advised, hare-brained, idiotic things a British sea captain could have done in that situation. Now, it might well be that Captain Lawrence will answer this nutty challenge to come out and fight ship to ship--thus facing a court martial even if he wins the battle--but I suspect that it's much more likely that he will follow one of several alternative courses available to him: Wait until the following day when the Shannon has to stand down for water and just slip on out of the harbor. Head out when he has the weather gauge and chase the Shannon out to sea where she'll eventually have to strike her colors because she is out of water. Come out of the harbor with the Constitution and maybe the other ship at his side, even if only partially outfitted and provisioned, and easily add the Shannon to the American navy; and then go on to defeat the British blockade in detail. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

01-07-2008, 12:20 PM	#123
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	It turned out that there was an option 4 that I hadn't thought of. The captain of the Chesapeake never got the letter. He was already on his way out. He engaged the Shannon and lost both his ship and his life in the process, and that was the end of the book. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

01-07-2008, 04:52 PM	#125
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Yup. I would have been suspicious of the British captain's motives, too. The US Navy history site has a web page about what really happened in the battle between the Shannon and the Chesapeake. HMS Shannon vs. US Chesapeake, June 1, 1813 U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

01-07-2008, 04:57 PM	#126
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Aha! It was during this battle that Captain James Lawrence issued the immortal words, "Don't give up the ship!" __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

01-07-2008, 02:03 PM	#124
Miros1 Goddess for Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY State Posts: 3,303	Actually, I'd have assumed he was lying about the one day of water and was trying to trick Captain Lawrence into coming out the next day assuming the Shannon would strike colors.

01-07-2008, 05:09 PM	#127
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Incidentally, Jack and Stephen were aboard HMS Java when the USS Constitution shot her up on December 29, 1812. That's how they ended up being prisoners of war in Boston in the first place. O'Brian likes to keep his novels as historically accurate as he can while placing his fictional characters aboard the ship. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

01-11-2008, 03:56 AM	#128
shorty943 Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 805	It makes a break from the institutionalised "official" history books. The lessons are still there, but in a more personal way. Wilbur Smith writes of South Africa in the same way.

01-11-2008, 11:47 AM	#129
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	I hadn't heard of Wilbur Smith. I take it he writes historical novels? __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

01-11-2008, 11:46 PM	#130
shorty943 Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 805	Mostly recent South Africa. The diamond wars, Tribal wars, the early 20th century Italian and German pushes into North Africa, between the two world wars, mentions Cecil Rhodes (Rhodesia) a few times. Formulated of course. The hero is always a manly man with the obligatory limp, bad burn scars or what ever, the lead lady is a ravishing beauty, shame about the broken tooth received in the school Lacrosse match. Etc, etc. And they all live happily ever after on the Rift Valley. More for the ladies I think, I read a couple he wrote. Apart from the names and a few other changes, as the saying goes. The story is pretty much the same. An action romance with some local flavour thrown in.

01-12-2008, 08:03 PM	#131
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Hmm... that doesn't sound at all like O'Brian's work with Master and Commander. His characters live in the times and places they inhabit, right down to the least detail. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

01-13-2008, 01:35 AM	#132
shorty943 Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 805	Smith is more of the romantic side I suppose. I read the first one because Mother dear had enjoyed the story. The second was really not that different, so I never read another Wilbur Smith novel. But, the detail of the life and times, the tribal life stories, all are accurate. The brutality towards the African people, the lust and murder for diamonds and gold. Just a little softened for the ladies. Captain J. E. MacDonald, there is a war writer. A genuine Royal Australian Navy WW2 destroyer skipper. Came up through the ranks to become a commissioned officer. Through the hawsepipe as we call it. Try to find anything by him, about the pacific war, our way of doing it. Then you might get an idea of why we still love JFK over here. JFK was based here for a while during WW2 and I still swear today, he is the real McHale, of McHale's Navy.

01-13-2008, 03:25 AM	#133
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Wow! I'm surprised that JFK's publicists are still effective after all these years! __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

01-13-2008, 07:03 AM	#134
shorty943 Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 805	It's a Navy thing, mate. A skipper that tows a crewman for over a day by his belt to save him. You can't forget a man like that.

01-13-2008, 11:32 AM	#135
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	I'm sure the crewman wouldn't forget it! I've never read PT109 so I suspect I'm out of the loop when it comes to JFK being a Navy hero, but there is some interesting documentation about it on the US Navy history site. "Any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction, 'I served in the United States Navy,'" wrote President John F. Kennedy in August 1963. http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-2.htm __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?

01-17-2008, 08:10 PM	#136
shorty943 Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 805	From memory it was his engineer. The movie starring William Holden is actually quite good. For Whollywierd. I had a quick look at the USN report. Most properly dry. It was his inauguration speech re-broadcast over here that made me think as a kid in school. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask instead, what you can do for your country".

01-17-2008, 09:07 PM	#137
Miros1 Goddess for Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NY State Posts: 3,303	You know, we actually discussed PT-109 before. Don't remember if it was here or on the Hullabaloo.

01-17-2008, 09:39 PM	#138
shorty943 Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 805	Here in passing I think.

01-18-2008, 12:22 AM	#139
Greg Da Guy Wut Owns Dis Joint Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 3,566	Yeah, but I think we were talking about Pollenation Technician #109. __________________ Who are all these people and what do they know?